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Date:	12/22/99 2:06:46 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, December 22 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 1554<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: England<BR>
Re: How much should a starship cost<BR>
Re: O Canada<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller roadshows<BR>
RE: Traveller roadshows<BR>
All I want is a  Search engine for X-Mass<BR>
RE: Traveller roadshows<BR>
RE: Freedom<BR>
Re: England<BR>
RE: England<BR>
Re: Freedom<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1551<BR>
My best traveller adventure<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1551<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1551<BR>
Re: Traveller roadshows<BR>
Christmal Carols for the Modern Mentality<BR>
Re: War of 1812 (now w/ ObTrav!)<BR>
Re: the north american union<BR>
Re: United States<BR>
Re: the north american union<BR>
Re M1100 Terra<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 19:46:40 GMT<BR>
From: "i Steve" <isteve1967@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: RE: England<BR>
<BR>
>butts kicked in wars with people you used to hire as mercenaries....<BR>
<BR>
ummm, I hate to mention butts-getting-kicked-in-wars-in-the-latter-<BR>
half-of-the-20th-century to an American, mate...I seem to recall your lot <BR>
have a loss and a draw in there somewhere?  No offense - you gave us The <BR>
Doors, and for that alone I can forgive America most things  *grin*<BR>
<BR>
iSteve<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 06:48:00 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: How much should a starship cost<BR>
<BR>
>> I rather expect that a "tramp freighter" is worth considerably than<BR>
>> you'd think (and I'm talking about the current sea-going type). So<BR>
>> perhaps we need to reconsider our overly romantic view of tramp<BR>
>> freighters.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>What current sea-going tramp freighters?  In any case I'm not talking<BR>
realism here (the Traveller economy doesn't make sense anyway), I'm talking<BR>
playability.<BR>
<BR>
    Australia still has short run ships called "Ninety Miler's" that ply the<BR>
coast moving incidental cargo. True, they are owned by large companies but a<BR>
few years ago one was paid off and then bought by a coalition of Captains<BR>
who were recently laid off by the Australian National Line (now defunct,<BR>
curse you politicians!)<BR>
    They are in fact, much sought after ships as they allow you to be in<BR>
port every night, great for family men. My brother is a Master and he and a<BR>
few mates had a look at buying the Cape Don, an ex-lighthouse tender, for<BR>
hauling cargo around the pacific islands but a case of marriage got in the<BR>
way. It would have been an amazing ship for it, she carries a WW2<BR>
Shwimmenwagen and a LARC for moving around inshore, very much like a<BR>
Traveller vessels "Ships Boats."<BR>
    If your interested and in Australia, the Don is tied up at Coffs<BR>
Harbour, rusting away.<BR>
    Jim<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:03:59 -0800<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: O Canada<BR>
<BR>
Charles Collin wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> This is all a little embarrassing.  You see, we Canadians don't normally<BR>
> talk about Canada out loud in public where foreigners might hear us. <BR>
> Certainly not with any pride or anything like that.  It's kinda like Brits<BR>
> with their emotions or Americans with Chuck Woolery...<BR>
<BR>
Okay, I have to share my favorite Canadian jokes now.<BR>
<BR>
#1 - <BR>
<BR>
Q: How do you get 10 rowdy drunk Canadians out of your swimming pool?<BR>
<BR>
A: Say "Uh, guys, could you get out of the pool please?"<BR>
<BR>
#2 - <BR>
<BR>
I don't know how true this story is, but I've heard that there was some<BR>
sort of contest to create a saying for Canada, starting "As Canadian <BR>
as...", that was analogous to "As American as apple pie". The winner? <BR>
<BR>
"As Canadian as possible under the circumstances."<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell "not a Canadian... yet" Bornschlegel<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:05:38 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Subject: Re: Traveller roadshows<BR>
<BR>
>From: "i Steve" <isteve1967@hotmail.com><BR>
<BR>
I had written:<BR>
>>He's calling for help, TMLers!  Remember, isteve,<BR>
>>suicide is never a solution.  Why don't you take out<BR>
<BR>
>Worked....P.S. now unemployed accountant seeks<BR>
>gainful employment (will work for food, roof over <BR>
>head and enough money to send to Swordy to complete <BR>
>my CT collection), can't travel too far as the police<BR>
<BR>
>asked me not to leave the country.....<BR>
<BR>
Ah.  I've accomplished my good deed for the day, and<BR>
it's not even lunch time.  Maybe I'll just take the<BR>
afternoon off.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:14:41 -0000<BR>
From: "CHARLES WALKER" <cnw@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller roadshows<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:25:40 -0000<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller roadshows<BR>
<BR>
Maybe we should all get together for a game - somewhere neutral, like<BR>
Todmorden, which *should* be in Lancashire again <g>.<BR>
<BR>
        If we could make that Hebden Bridge, Jae Campbell of Signal GK zine<BR>
lives there!<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
Behold,  his feet leave tracks in the sands of time,<BR>
and Death walks at his left hand...<BR>
UTUP.<BR>
0609-A666A667-5-5-2<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:26:29 -0600<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: All I want is a  Search engine for X-Mass<BR>
<BR>
I am taking a day to surf the Traveller web rings, and have come up <BR>
with an idea.  Can someone with the skills *I dont have them)<BR>
create a Traveller search engine, dedicated to only the webrings.  <BR>
This would speed up Traveller research greatly.  The engine could <BR>
be attached along with web ring banners.  Just a thought<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:22:07 GMT<BR>
From: "i Steve" <isteve1967@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller roadshows<BR>
<BR>
>Maybe we should all get together for a game - somewhere neutral, like<BR>
>Todmorden, which *should* be in Lancashire again <g>.<BR>
><BR>
>         If we could make that Hebden Bridge, Jae Campbell of Signal GK <BR>
>zine<BR>
>lives there!<BR>
<BR>
Careful guys, this is sounding dangerously close to a plan....<BR>
<BR>
iSteve<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:58:14 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Freedom<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson writes:<BR>
>Within _any_ legal system you are free to take any action that<BR>
>does not violate the law (i.e. you may take any 'legal' action).<BR>
>That's just a matter of definition.  Of course, the available<BR>
>legal actions can be very limited.  What determines which of two<BR>
>societies is 'freer' is what actions are legal.<BR>
<BR>
	Don't forget, comrade, that freedom is not only determined<BR>
	by the government.  Economics, environment, your neighbours,<BR>
	all these things (and others) may have a bearing on your<BR>
	freedom.<BR>
<BR>
	Yes, we live in a free society: both rich and poor people are<BR>
	allowed to own a yacht, though neither rich nor poor people<BR>
	may sleep in an ally.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:55:51 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: England<BR>
<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> We'll give you the Rolling Stones and the Beatles,<BR>
> however.  Those are definitely in your favor.<BR>
<BR>
Don't forget John Stuart Mill and David Hume. Oh, wait... Hume was a Scot,<BR>
does he count? I'd also add Adam Smith, but I think he was a Scot as well.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:32:19 +0000<BR>
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: England<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 22 Dec 1999, Mark Preston wrote:<BR>
>Actually - and this may come as a suprise to Americans - Britain does<BR>
>not have a bill of rights<BR>
<BR>
Oh yes it does, the 1688 Bill of Rights. But it doesn't concern the rights of<BR>
the citizen versus those of the government. Rather it delineates the powers of<BR>
King and Parliament.<BR>
<BR>
>, or even a written constitution. The nearest<BR>
>thing is the Charter 88 - a proposal for a bill of right - and that<BR>
>was not started until 1988.<BR>
><BR>
Actually, it doesn't have a single written constitution, but:<BR>
<BR>
a) a number of laws govern the procedures which underlie Parliament, elections,<BR>
etc. Since much of English law is also circumscribed by interpretation and<BR>
precedent, even these parts are only half written down.<BR>
<BR>
b) European laws and treaties are moving some way towards a definition<BR>
of citizenship. If at some point they start to constrain the procedure (as<BR>
opposed to the behaviour) of government, they'll be a constitution in all but<BR>
name.<BR>
<BR>
>FYI, the last invasion of Britain was during the Napolenic Wars, when<BR>
>a bunch of Froggies attaked South Wales and (I kid you not) were<BR>
>frightened away by Welsh wome wearing their traditional dress - the<BR>
>red shawls and tall bleck hats were mistaken for soldiers' uniforms.<BR>
>The last successful invasion was in 1066, without a doubt.<BR>
<BR>
The last successful invasion of Britain was the German invasion of the Channel<BR>
Islands in 1940, which they held for the rest of WWII. England as a whole has<BR>
not been conquered by a foreign power since 1066 (William of Orange<BR>
notwithstanding), nor have any of the subsequent British Unions involving<BR>
England.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Mark Watson, markw@antares.demon.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:10:59 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Freedom<BR>
<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Yes, we live in a free society: both rich and poor people are<BR>
> allowed to own a yacht, though neither rich nor poor people<BR>
> may sleep in an ally.<BR>
<BR>
But I've slept in Canada before, and I've slept in Germany as well!<BR>
<BR>
Oh, you mean alley, not ally! ;)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:23:54 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1551<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 99-12-22 10:21:48 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< So the cultural bias (if any) in the bulk of  Trav  illustrations<BR>
 does not come from the writers but the illustrators. >><BR>
<BR>
I thought I had made that clear . . . do you know how tough it is (well, <BR>
was...) to get artists to draw anything other than boring caucasians? <BR>
(actually, it was kind of tough to get them to draw anything but babes in <BR>
thong bikinis -- artists didn't get out much back in those days       :   )   <BR>
)<BR>
<BR>
There are more minority artists in the biz these days, and everybody's <BR>
consciousness has been raised a bit, so it is less of a problem, but still <BR>
requires some effort on our part.<BR>
<BR>
Loren (former art director) Wiseman<BR>
      GDW Emeritus<BR>
      SJ Games Emigre<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:29:32 EST<BR>
From: GaryBartz@aol.com<BR>
Subject: My best traveller adventure<BR>
<BR>
Since  my exams are over, and there is a race thread on the group, it is time <BR>
for my promised recounting of my best traveller adventure.<BR>
<BR>
Background: The PCs, after discharge in the Marches after the latest war, had <BR>
been approached and recruited by Navy Intel. They were given a beat up far <BR>
trader with drives and a sensor package that looked so-so, but always worked. <BR>
The rest of the ship was in well used shape. The adventures continued, with <BR>
some coming from missions, other they got into on their own. They never <BR>
figured out how their control could get some places before them on muti-jump <BR>
trips [the Imperiallines secret]. I played the universe as having so much <BR>
information available that some important things got lost in the flow. My <BR>
universe featured a wealthy mega corp family, with a Duke as the true head of <BR>
it, considering taking the throne by force. The PCs were enroute to the <BR>
subsector capital when they stopped at a system I had handwaved into <BR>
existence to make a J2 shortcut. The briefing data culled by the computer <BR>
stated that the world was being sponsored by a megacorp [guess which one] in <BR>
their development, and they had gone from tech 9 to high A in only 20 years, <BR>
and they really liked high tech.<BR>
<BR>
The adventure:<BR>
I had the human players choose their skin color before they made the world, <BR>
most were white, one asian. The world itself ended up having an asian like <BR>
vast majority, with a small white sub group who had arrived just after the <BR>
long night because of the natural beauty of the planet, this group also wore <BR>
beards and natural products, where the majority preferred a more clean cut, <BR>
imperial fashion look [the landers had originally lived on the south land <BR>
mass, and only in the last 25 or so years had they started moving in response <BR>
to mining needs in the south, the moves were rather forced, but they were <BR>
promised resverations to keep natural in return]. <BR>
The players encountered some problems whenever meeting someone or being on <BR>
the street, unless using or holding tech level A or higher equipment. They <BR>
then intervened the chase of a 'dirty lander' [lander lover], but were unable <BR>
to save her. the police responded, and at first did not care, then they cared <BR>
when the PCs offered the use of their equipment for investigation. The next <BR>
day the police once again did not care, no matter what. <BR>
The PCs were contacted by some landers, who trusted them a little, as they <BR>
shared skin color on a planet where color meant culture, and since they tried <BR>
to help. The girl had seen something, as had someone else who went into <BR>
hiding. They wanted to know what.<BR>
The PCs found her. Along the way there was much pressure from some parties, <BR>
and from the megacorp who was trying to advance the planet, bringing up tech, <BR>
and establishing new plants. It turned out the Landers had been starting to <BR>
protest the tech and mining, and the upcoming elections in which a very-pro <BR>
corp might win. They were also mad that they were losing their restorations <BR>
in the south...<BR>
Anti-lander fervor got worse...the PCs discovered the hook was a plot to <BR>
explode a nuclear weapon in the city while the starport's grid was down [I <BR>
state that the 3I has heavy dampers at all A-C ports, and most member planets <BR>
are issued the same for their major cities as part of the defense of the 3I] <BR>
during an announced upgrade [which would allow heavy ships to land and new <BR>
ship construction to take place when finished]. The Landers are to be blamed. <BR>
The PCs stop the blast with minutes to spare after a grand chase and <BR>
warehouse crawl. They are media heroes, but the proof that the corp is behind <BR>
it is not there, and the Landers are really hated by all...the people riot, <BR>
and the Landers are hunted.<BR>
The corp and new government offer to relo the Landers at another planet <BR>
better suited to their culture, one off of any jump routes. Big ships come <BR>
and go, but the PCs got suspicious...because this relo program took two weeks <BR>
after the bomb adventure. The PCs got into a relo center that was strangely <BR>
empty, with all the personal gone. They got the system to work, from the <BR>
vehicle unloading center, to the vast briefing and waiting area to the <BR>
medical clearance area. They figured out what was going to happen in the med <BR>
area, and avoided the poison. they did activate the robots who stripped the <BR>
bodies of all valuables, and destroyed the bodies and junk by fusion. They <BR>
escaped just as the centers, in remote areas, all went up in small, <BR>
controlled explosions after 90% of the landers, those who did not flee to the <BR>
wilderness areas were relo-ed.<BR>
<BR>
The PCs fled to report to their control at their assigned destination [late] <BR>
and were told that she knew. The rebellion started some months later, and the <BR>
PCs had a front row seat. The 3I won, the evil corp lost, and the group <BR>
switched to AD&D with a new DM.<BR>
<BR>
Gary<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:40:25 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1551<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 99-12-22 10:21:48 EST, you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> << So the cultural bias (if any) in the bulk of  Trav  illustrations<BR>
>  does not come from the writers but the illustrators. >><BR>
> <BR>
> I thought I had made that clear . . . do you know how tough it is (well, <BR>
> was...) to get artists to draw anything other than boring caucasians? <BR>
> (actually, it was kind of tough to get them to draw anything but babes in <BR>
> thong bikinis -- artists didn't get out much back in those days :)  )<BR>
> <BR>
A lot of artists do not know how to draw black or brown people especially<BR>
in B/W or greyscale art.  I have this problem when asking artists to do<BR>
illustrations for my stuff because most of the people I like to write<BR>
about aren't white.  One of the major races of humaniti in my universe<BR>
is mostly very dark, skin tones being almost exclusively shades of what's<BR>
considered "black" in the Western world.  This is actually a lot of<BR>
diversity considering that they range from a kind of almost latte color to<BR>
very very black indeed, but most of them have rather straight hair and<BR>
features that are somewhere in the middle of the black/Asian continuum.<BR>
What it is clear that they are not is white.  There are a few people on<BR>
their homeworld that can "pass" for white but they live on an isolated<BR>
chain of islands and their culture is significantly different from that<BR>
which surrounds it so there is little intermarriage.  Even so, most of<BR>
those people are that latte color.<BR>
<BR>
I have had very mixed results with people doing art on these characters.<BR>
Sometimes people don't even read the descriptions and just assume that of<BR>
course the dominant characters in any storyline will be white.  In<BR>
actuality, two of the main characters in this story ARE mostly white<BR>
people of Terran descent, but that is a plot point-- Liuterin, who was<BR>
raised amongst these people, is almost instantly identifiable as herself<BR>
because she is the ONLY member of her social class to have yellow hair,<BR>
naturally white skin, and green eyes, among other traits that make her<BR>
unusual.  There is a blond woman on the Islands but her darker skin tone<BR>
and the shape of her features is still recognizably Khalanghaari...<BR>
<BR>
argh.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:39:48 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1551<BR>
<BR>
From: <GDWGAMES@aol.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> (actually, it was kind of tough to get them to draw anything but babes<BR>
>in  thong bikinis -- artists didn't get out much back in those<BR>
>days       :   )    )<BR>
<BR>
Well, Loren, I for one am glad that you were there in those days to put a<BR>
stop to that kind of stuff. I mean, could you imagine the discussion that<BR>
would have started now if you hadn't been there?<BR>
<BR>
"I've been paging through my Traveller materials and I can't find one<BR>
picture of a Vilani who isn't female and dressed in a thong bikini. In fact,<BR>
I can't find any picture of a Solomani who isn't female and in a thong<BR>
bikini. Actually, I can't find a picture of a *K'Kree* who isn't female and<BR>
in a thong bikini. Are we to assume that most of the worlds of the Third<BR>
Imperium have excellent climate control, or that it's just a matter of<BR>
artists' bias.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 21:50:32 -0000<BR>
From: "CHARLES WALKER" <cnw@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller roadshows<BR>
<BR>
>Oh god, Yorkshiremen in space!  "We've bloody misjumped, you daft bugger!"<BR>
><BR>
>Or a special combat rule for Yorkshire Travellers, a la Saint Geoff<BR>
>Boycott...ignore normal rate of fire, shoot once per hour, roll 8+ to avoid<BR>
>hitting another member of your own squad, else hit target for 1 point of<BR>
>damage....<BR>
><BR>
>(apologies to those who don't get cricket references, but it's revenge for<BR>
>the gun control war.  *grin*)<BR>
><BR>
>iSteve<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Only  a   *Saint*  around here we used to say "God is alive and well and<BR>
playing Cricket for Yorkshire"<BR>
<BR>
Obv Trav.<BR>
<BR>
    Well he would make a good a religious figure as Elvis<BR>
<BR>
Nick.<BR>
Behold,  his feet leave tracks in the sands of time,<BR>
and Death walks at his left hand...<BR>
UTUP.<BR>
0609-A666A667-5-5-2<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:01:58 -0500<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Christmal Carols for the Modern Mentality<BR>
<BR>
More stuff that Kenji shouldn't be allowed to see... :)<BR>
<BR>
These are to traditional tunes; it shouldn't be too difficult to<BR>
figure out which ones...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Christmas time is drawing nigh,<BR>
Snowflakes drift down from the sky.<BR>
Angels we have heard on high<BR>
Tell us to go out and BUY...<BR>
<BR>
Glo-o-o-o-o-o--<BR>
- --o-o-o-o-o--<BR>
- --ri-i-ou-us gifts and toys,<BR>
in excelsior packing...<BR>
<BR>
Glo-o-o-o-o-o--<BR>
- --o-o-o-o-o--<BR>
- --ri-i-ou-us gifts and toys,<BR>
in excelsior pa-ac-king!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hark! The Herald-Tribune si-ings,<BR>
Advertising wondrous things!<BR>
Stereos and VCRs,<BR>
Pokmon and next year's cars.<BR>
Sales galore (you pay the ta-ax)!<BR>
Run those charge cards to the ma-ax!<BR>
Commerce is the Christmas thing --<BR>
Listen to those reg'sters ring!<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:01:20 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: War of 1812 (now w/ ObTrav!)<BR>
<BR>
On 20 Dec 99, at 10:59, Tascelt@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> If that were true, then we here in the US would be part of Canada now. <BR>
> This is one of real life's examples of how real war is not like "Axis &<BR>
> Allies".  Sacking the capitol does not mean you won the war.  Both sides<BR>
> were not disinterested as you suggest, it was more like both were<BR>
> unprepared.  America was a fledgling nation, not ready physically or<BR>
> financially to fight another war and it had incompetant people sprinkled<BR>
> through the government.  The british wanted a real war but had over strung<BR>
> themselves.  <BR>
<BR>
The war ended (on the British side) because after having dealt with <BR>
Napoleon the British people didn't want more war. They'd had enough.<BR>
<BR>
> Lack of political will had nothing to do with it, nor was it an american<BR>
> chance to grab british territory.  The brits started with the invasion and<BR>
> then realized that Napoleon was going to be a tougher enemy than<BR>
> anticipated. <BR>
>  They could not fight two major wars and so they chose to take on the<BR>
>  closer <BR>
> enemy.  The yanks saw the brit drawel and said fine, we'll follow up to<BR>
> prevent future invasions.<BR>
<BR>
You have details and cites for this British invasion, I presume?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz><BR>
Wellington, New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:01:20 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: the north american union<BR>
<BR>
> True we didn't suceed at the land grab. And we lost all<BR>
> of the battles except the last one (the battle of New<BR>
> Orleans - fought 2 weeks after the peace treaty was<BR>
> signed.) But we got two very important concessions<BR>
> from the Brits: 1) The british agreed to stop press ganging<BR>
> american sailors into the royal navy, and 2) The British<BR>
> stopped supporting the Indian tribes to the west of the<BR>
> US ( a significant concession in terms of US expansion.)<BR>
<BR>
There was another effect of this - the US got to keep the Louisiana <BR>
purchase, which probably should have gone back to Spain (given that <BR>
Napoleon extorted it from the Spanish so he could sell it for cash to <BR>
the US).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz><BR>
Wellington, New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:01:20 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: United States<BR>
<BR>
On 20 Dec 99, at 16:22, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> >>From: JFZeigler@aol.comSubject: Re: United States<BR>
> ><BR>
> >>I'm developing Terra (era 1120 in the G:T timeline) <BR>
> >>for SJG.  Right now I'm thinking that virtually <BR>
> >>*none* of the nation-states of the late 20th Century<BR>
> >>still exist in any significant form in the Third<BR>
> >>Imperium era.<BR>
> >>I mean, think about it. . .how many nation-states of <BR>
> >>about 1650 BC still exist today?  Ignoring the<BR>
> >>question of whether there *were* any nation-<BR>
> >>states in the modern sense that far back, you get <BR>
> >>maybe two: Egypt and China.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > India?  <BR>
> <BR>
> That was the *height* of the Assyrian Empire IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
The Assyrian records don't start until 893BC.<BR>
<BR>
> The Minoan Empire is a possibilty, but I think the eruption of Thera<BR>
> wiped them out centuries earlier.<BR>
<BR>
The Minoans were hit by earthquakes and tsunamis about 1400BC, but <BR>
survived. However the Mycenaens invaded (probably in the aftermath of <BR>
the 'quakes) and took over until they dissappeared around 1200BC. <BR>
However the Minoans date from at least 3100 BC, in their earliest form <BR>
(so do the Mycenean greeks), and were probably at their height from <BR>
about 1600BC to 1450BC. The interesting thing about the Minoans is that <BR>
they had no inland fortifications (we don't know about their coastal <BR>
areas, as the tsunamis didn't leave much) despite having the very <BR>
warlike Myceneans as neighbours. It would appear that they were the <BR>
first naval power in the world.<BR>
 <BR>
> The Phoenicians might be around. <BR>
<BR>
The Phoenicians date from the greek dark ages and onwards (as <BR>
independants, otherwise they were active about 1500BC). Say 1200BC<BR>
<BR>
For 1650 BC we have (a rough list):<BR>
<BR>
Egyptians<BR>
Minoans<BR>
Myceneans<BR>
Troy (I don't know which number)<BR>
China<BR>
The Hebrews (they entered Egypt around this time)<BR>
The final work at Stonehenge was done around now<BR>
I think the Hittites were around as well.<BR>
<BR>
Obviously there are more, but I don't know their names.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz><BR>
Wellington, New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:01:20 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: the north american union<BR>
<BR>
On 20 Dec 99, at 10:45, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I have to disagree that the US *started* the war. I lay the blame for<BR>
> *that* squarely at the feet of the Briish Royal Navy and its treatment of<BR>
> US vessels. Given the way they were acting, we didn't have a lot of choice<BR>
> if we wished to remain independent and be considered anything other than<BR>
> an odd sort of British colony.<BR>
<BR>
If that were the case you'd have expected the US maritime sates to be <BR>
enthusiastic contributors to the war, which they weren't. You'd also <BR>
expect the British to have put a lot of effort into a blockade of the <BR>
North-East US, which they didn't. IMO British press-ganging of US <BR>
sailors and high-handed treatment of US shipping, while provoking <BR>
considerable protest and threats, had little to do with the start of <BR>
the 1812 war, or its earlier period. IIRC later the British changed <BR>
their blockade policies, and the US NW became somewhat more involved.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz><BR>
Wellington, New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:10:59 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re M1100 Terra<BR>
<BR>
Ken Rooney Writes<BR>
>As a former geology major I feel pretty confident to say that barring major<BR>
>shifts in the sea level, continental boundaries would not change to any<BR>
>noticeable degree by IM 1100.  Although earthquakes, eruptions, etc are<BR>
>impressive events locally, the geological processes that result take hundreds<BR>
>of thousands, if not millions of years to create major differences.  A lot of<BR>
>geology texts have projections of what the world will look like in tens of<BR>
>million of years, there are differences, but its still recognizable as Terra.<BR>
<BR>
California has some fault sections with slippages measured in mm per year<BR>
into the double digits.<BR>
<BR>
Alaska has areas with subduction/uplift  pressures in excess of 1mm per year.<BR>
<BR>
Moraine degradation: Morainal features can be erroded rapidly. Current<BR>
rains are more acidic than historic rains, and thus breakdowns can be more<BR>
significant.<BR>
<BR>
a 2m raise in sea level will significantly affect the coaslines of florida,<BR>
Alaska, the mediterainean, the nile, and certain other areas. In fact,<BR>
there is a 1 mile wide, 4 mile long valley near anchorage that has an<BR>
elevation of 1m above high tide level; roughly 4m above it's low tide<BR>
level. It would go from salt-loving grasses to tidal swamp.<BR>
<BR>
Diversion of watercourses occurs suddenly (geologically speaking); one<BR>
eruption can create/destroy lakes, as well as landform changes.<BR>
<BR>
on the scale of the _I:E_ maps, only the erosile and explosive events are<BR>
likely to show. A major depression faulting event in siberia COULD result<BR>
in forming Lake Siberia. Likewise, the circular depression faulting in the<BR>
midwest US could do likewise. Hawaii will have a new island in about 1000<BR>
years: loihi. in 3500 years, that island should be fairly big, and many of<BR>
the hawaiian islands will have differing shapes.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com<BR>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1554<BR>
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